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Tuesday, May 30, 2006

Goldstein: Just another prick in the hall

First off, Jeff, I'm only posting this here because I don't want to "dirty up" your precious website, and you told me to fuck off. So, here I am, fucking off on a Tuesday evening - wasting my valuable time to give You a lesson in basic humanity and etiquette. The things I won't do for you, eh?

I've been following the barrages of literary reductionisms or whatever you call them with some mild amusement. Personally, I don't care who's correct - it doesn't really change the way I read but it was interesting to watch two people debate something other than politics, for a change. I consider Thers a friend (as much as one can, knowing someone only via the internets) and I respect his intelligence and wit. I'd never heard of you before but I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, until now.
Until Drs [Thersites] and [NYMary] of [redacted] College in [redacted] NY prove that one of my commenters made this comment about their kid—or else explain to their own commenters that coming over here and trying to tar my site with this offense is very bad form and will no longer be tolerated—Drs [Thersites] and [NYMary] of [redacted] College in [redacted]NY can kiss my ass. From the annex where they teach comp to GED recipients.
What are you, some kind of tough guy, Jeff? Fucking grow up, man... Or perhaps you can tell me what good reason you have to post this kind of information in comments on your website. We both know, you and I, there are only two reasons to post info like that: 1) You're expecting some reader (whether one of "your commentors" or not) to harass and intimidate Thers and Mary, or 2) You're posting it to intimidate them with the threat that #1 will occur. The idea that you would hold someone's privacy hostage for the sake of your "public reputation" is appalling and shows that you cannot be trusted in the slightest. Your family must be so very, very proud.

But, for the sake of civility and teaching you something, let me throw a few Surely's your way.
Assuming that we can agree on these basic points, I have to wonder what was going thru your tiny mind.

As far as the lewd comment about Thers' daughter, I'm not pointing any fingers at you or your commentors. For all I know, it may have been a random internets freak or just someone who doesn't like Thers. But again, your website's "reputation" is far less important than Thers' and Mary's privacy, and your intentional posting of their information, semi-public and researchable as it might be, is beyond the pale. You've proven to be nothing but a spoiled, vindictive child and you don't deserve the slightest hint of respect. But you won't find me posting your personal information here or anywhere else.
Tena—you are, without doubt, one of the stupidest people I have ever encountered in any forum. And you shouldn’t take that lightly, because I’ve spent several weeks now having to do battle on the finer points of interpretive theory with a bunch of adult education instructors posing as big shot university literature professors.
Oh, I would argue that it's You, Jeff, who's one of the stupidest people I've ever encountered in any forum. Throwing a tantrum by posting someone's full name and employer information (multiple times) because you disagree with them is hardly the work of a man who's in full control of his senses or his civility, wouldn't you agree? Also, I was bemused by the phrase "having to do battle" - were you under some form of duress that you felt compelled to engage Thers repeatedly? I'm sure your "public reputation" could easily have withstood the challenges of an "adult education instructor", no? By the by, you and your commentors aren't exactly the Pristine Kids on the Block when it comes to debating other people, either, so don't pretend you're all Sweetness and Light there, pally.

I hope you'll take this castigation in stride, Jeff. Like a lot of people, I'm concerned about the tenor of debate on the internets - some days less than others, of course. But I find it hard to believe that a scholar, such as you are, would stoop to something of this nature. You really need to grow up and act like a Man.

Rip -

Hey Rip, you've got a real purty mouth.
Shit, one of Jeff's commenters namestole me! Motherfuckers.
Thanks, Rip.

I'm not even involved in this, but that's what Molly Ivins said about the Plame outing: anyone who doesn't see the slimy hand of Karl Rove in it isn't paying attention.
I love that he had the gall to call Tena stupid. My 3 year old second cousin argues that way too, and he cries when someone tells him that's inappropriate. I expect he'll grow out of it, but I'm losing hope for Jeff.
What I find most interesting about this entire exchange, is that it is Jeff, and his, apparently, regular commenters who have taken the greatest exception to him being challenged on anything.

Jeff is nothing more than a brat.
And what are JG's credentials? I didn't know that being Mr. Mom made one such an academic bigshot.
Charlotte; My 3 year old second cousin argues that way too

That doesn't bode well for him. At the risk of being a complete blogwhore, check out my piece today about Dubya and his upbringing. Sadly, it sounds like your 2nd cuz and Dubya share some traits:
You gotta admire the gall of a putz like Goldstein. Nice of him to lecture on civility while outing someone's personal information as retaliation for being made to look like the buffoon he is. Christ, I'm just an accountant but even I could tell he had no leg to stand on in his argument with Thers.

What a boring, pedantic moron. If jargon were brains, he'd be Einstein, I guess.
Let's see: credentials are a form of appeal to authority, a logical fallacy (discredited after the Enlightenment taught us to consider the products of reason, not history, as paramount to understanding).

So that whole line is a bunch of crap.

The fact that the argument quickly devolved into ad hominem attacks is also a problem of illogic. Not to mention irrelevance. Not to mention the sandbox, which is where this whole thing went, quite rapidly.

Not to point fingers at anyone (or to refuse to, actually). I was gonna note at "Metacomments" (but comments are down? Probably for the best) that Thers certainly had rigtheous indignation on his side (the comment about his daughter was absolutely uncalled for, whoever posted it and wherever it was posted). Couldn't figure out why his anger was upsetting so many partisans for Goldstein.

The silliness of the argument is what really floored me. Haven't studied literary theory in over 25 years, but I have spent some time on philosophy and theology in the meantime (largely self-taught, so it's not an appeal to authority on my part. I'm pretty much an auto-didact in those fields, and we all know how unimportant that is!). So I see the issue from several angles, but memory tells me the whole question of intention in literary theory is a debunked one, shredded decades back. Never did understand (or really, try to) why someone would argue over that, of all things.

But man, it spread around! Just keep it away from my blog, okay? I don't need the traffic that badly.

Still, in a blogfight, Thers, I've got your back. For what that's worth.
Back again. One last time. I promise.

Crap. Crap crap crap. Just read Lindsay's post on this, trying to catch up on the argument without reliving the argument. I thought it boiled down to this:

Literary analysis shouldn't be reduced to a guessing-game about what the author intended. You can't distill a single authoritative authorial position paper from a work of art.

Good to see I was right. And, having studied Saussure and Barthes when last I graced the halls of academe as an English student, I found this comment at her site:

1. Read Saussure (as many times as you need to, don't be scared) until you understand signifiers, signifieds and signs, 2. Then read Barthes and get over it.

I thought we'd ended this argument decades ago. Ironically, I had a similiar argument with my New Testament professors in seminary, keen to get to the "original intent" of Paul. I patiently explained that they were behind the curve of literary theory, as we'd abandoned that years ago.

Good to know I was right. And to see, once again, that no bad idea ever dies.

Thank you for the forum. Now I feel better. (Though I'm still gonna get Thers for that "theologians" crack. He knows the one I mean....)
Why is metacomments down?
well, we were all introduced to Ripley by the salutation,

Good evening Freethinkers.

really, that's the difference between us and them.

and tho i feign indifference, i.e., recognize my ignorance, the whole subject of language/communication is fascinating, and it has been interesting when i observed Thers limn that out.

i would just observe that if you are going to argue with WATB's you are probably going to get a tantrum.

and not that jeff will see this, but 'case you do jeff, get help, i've read your posts and i may not understand the esotericism, but you are sick man with a pumped up sense of your self that your output surely does not merit.
hearing about this pissed off this lurker immensely. I have long enjoyed reading Thersite's work, and am hopping mad. If there is anything productive that can be done, please let us know.
Hey all. Metacomments is gone. The baggage built up too rapidly, now that there is family involved. I'll have something new up soon, with a slightly altered new handle and outlook.
If we needed any further proof of the integritudedness of Pasty's commenters, I swatted at one particulary nasty piece of low hanging fruit over there -- who chose to bring both her own children and Mary into the converstaion -- and was immediately threatened with being outed.

Bitter, ugly bunch they are.
yet again a leftie violates the precepts of Online Integrity.
You can't talk about violations, Flory, under threat of SEVERE penalties.
Quit hating, ok?

Thers, I look forward to your new site.
I do agree that JG has a borderline personality disorder of some sort.
It's just bizarre to see him craving the praise of knuckle-draggers over his theoretical "output".
That sucks ass, Thers and NYMary. I'm convinced (after reading Goldstein repeatedly ask Thers for his credentials) that it was Jeff himself that outed Thers. What a piece of shit.

And since Metacomments is no more, I would like to point out that they are still referring to Thersites as Dr.X and Mr. I've-got-integrity-dripping-from-the
ass is letting it stand. Fuck their goddamned pledge.

I'm just curious how the left is violating it's pledge? I'm still not wearing pants and I'm still not whining to anyone about it (and I haven't really flirted- it just looked that way).
Goldstein's on Klonopin, right?

I don't say this to excuse him, because What. An. Ass. That said, though, this kind of behavior is right in line with what you might expect from somebody who's reacting to Klonopin in bad ways. Somebody should talk to whoever's prescribing for him.

And JG? Dude, if you're reading this, that stuff's no good for you. Taper off, and start now. The sooner you get off it, the less humiliated you'll be when you look back on your life a few years from now.

Trust me. I know. Which is why this comment is anonymous.
Will blogger close JG's blog?
There's an open and shut case for violating their terms of service in a serious way...
What should we expect?
The night before Thersites & family were outed, Goldstein himself outed some hapless lady who'd sent him a private email he took offense to. The parts he quoted seemed absolutely benign - she called him Sweetpea - but he was obviously enraged. In a long post, he publicized her name and email address, and then hung around while his co-thinkers dug up a photograph of her, renamed her "Cunt," and generally worked themselves into a frenzy against her.

I have no idea if she ever felt any further repercussions, but their tone was so threatening it might be worth looking into.

Goldstein was very certain about having the legal right to do what he did to this unfortunate lady, but I don't know if the matter should end there. She isn't known in internet circles, as Thersite is, but the danger to which Goldstein exposed her is no less real.

These kinds of people are the reason I don't let my pets go outdoors.
I am absolutely sick about this. I saw this coming (I've watched the same scenario play out before, many many times), but I had the mistaken notion that JG would have a modicum of decency. I tried to reason with someone who could not be reasoned with, about laying off the demand for the creds IN A PUBLIC FORUM.

And then he did this.

By his fruits shall ye know him. And his is a big rotting, squishing pile.
I added a comment in the name of General Michael Hayden, CEO NSA/CIA/KFC to the latest post on onlineintegrity. The comment never was added to the post, and my registered login, GeneralMichaelHayden was banned.
I think we can trust JG's legal judgment as much as we can his understanding of critical theory.
I hope this woman has some legal recourse.
I tried to reason with someone who could not be reasoned with, about laying off the demand for the creds IN A PUBLIC FORUM.

Why shouldn't you demand creds from someone who insists on using the appeal to authority argument IN A PUBLIC FORUM?

And when the literary giant turns out to be a 13th grade English teacher, well...

Will blogger close JG's blog?

Not if you don't complain! Remember, when you contact them, it's Be sure to let us know how that works out.
Why shouldn't you demand creds from someone who insists on using the appeal to authority argument IN A PUBLIC FORUM?

Thers DIDN'T appeal to authority, you stupid fuck.
Pablo must spend all day googling Pasty's name. Just as Tacky miraculously appears whenever his name is mentioned; Pablo turns up in ALL the comments, on lots of different lefty blogs, which reference, no matter how glancingly, Pasty or PW. It's interesting. Well, not INTERESTING, really. I think I meant pathetic, actually. Never mind!


Pablo must spend all day googling Pasty's name.

When he's not seeing if anyone replies to his swingers' club profile, you mean? Talk about futility...
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